April 23, 2008
“Schools, council far apart on funding”
Per today’s P-I article of the above title (here), there is a $3 million or so difference between what’s in the proposed city council budget for the school system ($10.3 million) and what the school budget is asking for ($13.23 million). Also noted in the article: Council’s position is that the difference would have to be made via an increase in taxes (to the tune of $0.25 over the current level).
There is another way to increase funds to core city services that are in crisis (e.g., schools, police) that is not mentioned in the article (perhaps because it’s not yet been considered by Council?): reduce funding to other line items in the city budget.
Petersburg needs to apply for admission to Prince George or Dinwiddie County…..post haste!!
The city must say NO NO NO to any increase in the property tax rate, which is now the highest in Virginia.
The School system is a failure and a disgrace because it fails and has failed miserably for years to achieve the very unambitious academic standards that are set for it. It does not need more money , It needs a complete and profound change in the way it is administered and the people to do it.
The suggested increase in the tax rate would kill Petersburg
I was told that the bond referendum used to fund the golf course was only a small percentage of bondable authority that the city has. Does anybody know if this is true? Can we create bonds to provide the resources needed by our schools, police, and fire personnel?
How would applying for admission to Prince George or Dinwiddie County…. pst haste help us. I mean, what would that look like?
I’m not sure what bondable authority is. What about bondable capacity? I would think that there is only so much more debt that the city can reasonably afford to take on. But that is a wild conjecture on my part.
Petersburg has amply demonstrated its inability to manage its affairs as an independent city. It needs county government and county resources.
I agree that the suggested increase would kill Petersburg. I only moved here 4 months ago and already I am wondering how I am going to keep up with assessments and taxes.
“How would applying for admission to Prince George or Dinwiddie County…. pst haste help us. I mean, what would that look like?”
It would look like the bottom falling out of real estate values in dinwiddie and prince george, as everyone with the means flees to nottoway and amelia counties.
It won’t just be “white” flight, either.
Just look at what happened to chesterfield’s northern reaches when richmond “joined” them. The entire afican american middle class there moved south.
The way to do it is for petersburg to clean itself up, make itself attractive to businesses (lower taxes) and highly skilled residents. Then, people in dinwiddie may actually want to join US!
“Can we create bonds to provide the resources needed by our schools, police, and fire personnel?”
Atkin, I believe the city can NOT float bonds for day to day operations. It COULD if it wanted to build a new school, but since the people who run the schools have failed so terribly, the market for public education has been choosing the only option that is close to a private sector decision: they move when they have a kid to put in school, or they home school or send the kid to a private one. So, we have TOO many public schools now, not too few, and nothing to sell bonds for.
Also, if you haven’t been paying attention, it ain’t so easy to sell municipal bonds right now.
“Petersburg has amply demonstrated its inability to manage its affairs as an independent city. It needs county government and county resources.”
You tryin’ to create a panic?
I’m sure those counties have their own affairs to concern them and don’t need to be distracted by your fear mongering :)
Shawn,you are an interesting person
As a reminder to ALL, last year when they argued about the golf course. It was mentioned that the city can apply for bonds or loans of some $125 million. So why are we not looking into this to help offset some of these issues going on in the city.
Let’s face it, every department in the city needs an increase in pay. Yet the police department and the school systems are the two most visible departments of need in the area. We need to show other interested in the area and state that we are serious about fixing these two segments.
When people look at Petersburg and chose not to visit or live here is for two main reasons. The school system failures and the security issues throughout the city, but our officials do not think that is important. They feel the need to ride the wave of the recent business that has come to the area, but understand this people very little has to do with them recruiting this businesses, but the businesses seeing the opportunities themselves to move to a growing tri-city with Petersburg being the only area left for them to build. We are more so a place of convenience. I spoke with some official form CVS and Food Lion not too long ago, and they both said it was a because there was a need to be here and they contacted Petersburg and not the other way around.
I say that we all show up at council meeting next week and show our support for both these departments. Especially people from the 2nd, 4th and 6th Wards. Remember Petersburg does have an election this November also.
John,
They cannot float bonds for day-to-day expenses, only capital improvements. Think about it: how sustainable is it to write new bonds every year for salaries, keeping the lights on, etc.?
Do not read this as me defending the golf course, or not wanting more money to go to the police, or a better use of education resourses. It is not. Golf is hardly my priority, and the golf-course is not in my ward.
I am a supporter of the course, as I have played there on Wed. and Thursday and hopefully today. But I was making the point of if they really want the money they can get it. Infrastructor in the city is bad and in need of serious help. This is something that can be bonded as though a few others in the area. So we can save on the things and free up money to pay and improve the areas of salaries, and other MUCH needed things.
I think by asking the public if they are willing to pay for an increase of twenty five cents was a low and cop out way to do things. The citizens are paying for enough of the failures of the council and managers around here as it is.
But as stated earlier Peabody is in serious need of replacement, by doing so would show outsiders that we are taking a strong look at education here in the city. Currently we are giving a face lift to both Stuart and AP Hill and for what, that 12 million could have almost paid for a new facility. PHS is the newest school in the area and it is some 30 plus years of age.
A technical school is needed for the students here so they can get other job related skills.
This recent newcomer didn’t look at the ages of schools prior to moving to Petersburg; I looked at performance. And then I moved here anyway. Students and teachers can perform in decent schools regardless of their age, as long as the schools are maintained and kept up to date. Unless schools are overcrowded, I think remodeling is the most sensible thing to do. That said, 12 million dollars wouldn’t build a new facility, or even a quarter of one.
I should do the research myself, but do Petersburg students have access to a tech school? I tried to find out on the high school webpage, but clicking on the tech center link took me to a page was last updated in 06/07. That doesn’t give me a good impression. Could (or do) we share a tech school with one of the neighboring counties?
Brian,
I agree the City should not raise any taxes, but to attempt to blame it on the school system is totally unfair and out of line and a flat punk cop-out. Ask the city for a line to line audit, see what in their wallets???
The school system in the past has not been up to standards by a great margin, but again what relationship, support or expectations has city council had with the school system until now. To add, the only reason they have any relationship is because the new superindent has forged a relationship and understands the value of partnerships. In the past I would ask some city council member why won’t you hold the school system accountable, and his response would be we have nothing to do with the school system. I never understood that one. Now chickens are coming home to roost and there are great leadership now in place in the School and the police department and Council has run out of excuses to properly fund them. Now the tactic is the only way is to raise the already ridiculous taxbase. If you did your research Petersburg schools has the lowest cut from city budget than any other division. So why now does the financial burden lie with the school system. They are scape goating the school system. For some reason council feels their funding needs to go into social service, why? That is what has got Petersburg in the mess it is in now. Obviously someone is profiting big time to not see this city thrive. Because whatever excuses they can find a way. They found money for the gold course(that by the way I am in favor of), but this OKie Dokie crap they are pulling is not cool. Brian, I hope to see you a several school board meetings so before you comment on the school system, you will have your facts together. DON’T FALL FOR THE PROPAGANDA!
John,
“PHS is the newest school in the area and it is some 30 plus years of age.”
You got a problem with old buildings? My elementary school was built in the nineteen twenties. It was cold in the winter sometimes (esp the pool!), but the education was well above the national average.
“Currently we are giving a face lift to both Stuart and AP Hill and for what, that 12 million could have almost paid for a new facility.”
Are you a product of PPS? Or are you crazy? When you figure out how much it will take to build a new facility, in a time when there is OVER capacity in our schools, then work on how petersburg will get the money for the project.
“A technical school is needed for the students here so they can get other job related skills.”
Now you are talking! Petersburg and the whole US needs a LOT more technical schools. We are a nation that tries to train EVERY student to be a world leader or a professor of anthropology or a lawyer or something, and we don’t train hardly anybody to actually PRODUCE anything.
“For some reason council feels their funding needs to go into social service, why? That is what has got Petersburg in the mess it is in now.”
I’m glad somebody has the guts to say it. These social services attract bad influences like flies. We get all the trash from the entire metro area and beyond, because this is where the “free lunch” is.
Gloria…..The appalling academic record of the Petersburg schools has an direct impact on the city’s tax base. Prospective home buyers with children will not come to Petersburg because they do not want to put their children in a bad school system. Home prices and real estate assessments are depressed relative to surrounging jurisdictions as a direct result.
The system’s gross expenditure per pupil is near the highest in the state, yet the academic performance of its schools is near the lowest in the state. Therefore insufficient money for the system has not been not the problem.
The city has failed miserably to hold the school board to account because (a) the school board is not part of the city council governing structure(b)
the city has historically contributed less than 20% to the schools budget,(the balance coming from state and federal sources) and ipso facto has a weak financial incentive to seek to change the schools.
If the external sources of finance for the schools are reduced the pressure on the city for more money will increase. That has now started to happen.
Why are the school standards so poor? Systemic truancy and failure to enforce discipline in the classroom has to be one of the main causes.Teaching standards and methods and teacher quality may also be responsible factors.
The system’s employee payroll to pupil ratio is too high and is burdened with too many administrative and ancillary staff who are not directly concerned with what goes on the classroom. There is therefore room for signicant savings within the system.
I am also very concerned about other areas of the city’s budget such as welfare and social services and I am not in principle “making the school system a scapegoat for the city’s budgetary woes”
My focussing on the school system’s woes does not invalidate any of my arguments.
“the city has historically contributed less than 20% to the schools budget,(the balance coming from state and federal sources) and ipso facto has a weak financial incentive to seek to change the schools.”
Just the opposite….
It is other people’s money, flowing into petersburg, going to people who don’t deserve it, instead of the children, who get shafted and used as political pawns when they later fail in life by professional whiners and parasites.
Yea to increases for fire and police and nay to school budget increases. There is simply nothing wrong with our schools or our school personnel. As already previously pointed out, we already spend more than most localities on our school system. Unless the money will be used to purchase new parents for the students, then it is a shameful waste of tax money. Parenting in Petersburg is the weak link in achieving educational standards, crime reduction and most of the other negative factors that we face.
To Brian & Gary,
Everyone has their opinion and feels very validated by it based on the relationship to it.
I do not recall seeing any of you at any school board or school board budget meetings since I have arrived in Petersburg 3 years ago. I have been to approximately 40 out of 45 or more school board meetings and have a vested interest in the schools achieving excellence. I give over 200 volunteer hours a month in 3 schools and almost every administrator to maintenance person knows who I am and knows I don’t take crap and want them to perform.
In response to Brian, the academic record has been appalling? Yes, I agree but it is improving. I know you don’t want to hear that because it challenges your position and argument.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly the
performance of the school system affects the tax base. But the City chooses to put the highest dollar amount into Social Services that attracts people that will directly and adversely affect our school system in the worst way. The families we have the most problems with are a product of Petersburg Social Service! But David and Council feels we should be “Lady Liberty”, “give me your weary, tired and trifling!” When this City stops social service programs, hand outs, 10th and 11th chances, those individuals will leave Petersburg to find a “cop a squat” somewhere else and then we can start to attract a better quality resident. But by badgering the “school system” at this point with yesterdays data is irresponsible. I attend every meeting to get the correct information and not what my buddy or neighbor tells me, because you nor he could careless about the school system you see because (A) you don’t have kids attending, (B) it is zero benefit to you to see it is a resource, but only a tax burden. It is incorrect the state spends the highest on Petersburg Schools, if that has any truth it is back to again(Social Service) federal grants, because we have a bunch of blood sucking welfare,TANF, SSI, and other social service folks sucking blood from our tax dollars “we pay and they play”, and make more babies without prenatal care so they will have birth deficiencies and here the cycle starts over and over.
Petersburg schools gets government grants, but they can only used for certain things, at certain schools, in certain neighborhoods and it is solely directed out of the high percentage of welfare and TANF recipeints in this population. Those monies have nothing to do with the required city contributions at this point. Also the school system is not the highest, in this jurisdiction it is number 3-5 it is not the highest nor the lowest for funding.
The problem is in the city social service spending. If we get rid of the welfare recipients that want to make their lifestyle generational , we will get rid of most of the problems in the schools guaranteed, but everyone whats to be so freaking politically correct and not hold folks not contributing to the tax base accountable or they should leave. Simple! But when I suggest that everyone acts like I just pooted???????
Also your comment on the school and city council is separate, that is so old and lame and honestly if you think about it does not make any sense. PPS is not a broken off independent charter school. If they were separate why does the council and school board hold meetings together? Why does school board have part of the city’s budget. This is a small enough town that Council would have no choice to hold school board accountable. Individuals who are trying to make the argument that they are separate like I said before. We are all human and whatever we have no use for, we have no value of, and it serves no purpose for us, we basically dismiss as a non entity. If all of council’s kids were in the school system believe me the school system would be held accountable. Council is asking accountable questions now? So what is the real truth or convenient truth?
If city council and school board was so separate, the school would be operating as a private or independent charter school and city council will not be required to give them any money, like St. Joes.
The invitation still stands for you to attend not one but several school board meetings to see how the school system is now running. I have only seen maybe 1-2 council members attend “a” meeting since Dr. Victory has started. They don’t see it because they do not see the value because it does not affect their household.
Thanks for your dialog I hope I have enlightened you!
Gloria
I just have to say…wow! 200+ volunteer hours per month!!
I could never find that kinda time after working; taking care of my house/yard/pets; and dealing with my family and friends. Must be nice. =)
…humor, it’s my defense mechanism.
Shawn I am a graduate of PCPS. I was there when the school was ranked high in the state for all great things. Our tech program then prepared me well once I attended school.
The age of the building is secondary, the state of the building is a priority, have you ever stepped hoot into any of the schools in Petg? I have an do at least once a week. Dinwiddie spent $25 million on a school last year and it is a nice school, actually in the past 5 years they have built three school. Showing and making a point that education is high on the list of priorities.
Why is the need of new schools important? Step into the computer labs in Stuart school, and it is like a furnace. Not a proper environment. Step into Peabody, and go to the basement and see if the stinch on urine don’e send you packing, or the decaying walls don’t place fear you our eyes. The facility maintence group is doing the best they can but at some point we must do something else.
The school system and the police departments are the TWO MOST IMPORTANT issues in any and every city. Yet we are ignoring both.
I will say to all of you the same as Mrs Gloria did, get involved. Forget whether or not you have kids in the school system, just get involved. If you can read stop by a school to read to a class, if you can sing stop by and sing along with a class. Every little bit help us along the way.
GET INVOLVED
BE INVOLVED
STAY INVOLVED
gloria………Please read my comments more carefully.
1. I did not say the Petersburg schools have the highest funding in the state and the lowest standards. I said they were “near”these extremes.
2.I did not state that the city council and the school boards are “separate”.
I said that they are not integrated into the council’s governing structure. If they were,the School Board would replaced by an Education committe appointed by the Council and answering to the full council. It would be charged with overall fiscal and operational responsibility for the school system. Having joint meetings does not make the School Board answerable to the Council.
The city could exercise more influence over the School Board by vetoing its financial contribution(He who pays the piper.. etc), but they have in the past chosen not to do so.Withholding finance is only a default option,and it would take bold leadership to do this.
“I have been to approximately 40 out of 45 or more school board meetings and have a vested interest in the schools achieving excellence. I give over 200 volunteer hours a month in 3 schools and almost every administrator to maintenance person knows who I am and knows I don’t take crap and want them to perform.
In response to Brian, the academic record has been appalling? Yes, I agree but it is improving. I know you don’t want to hear that because it challenges your position and argument.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly the
performance of the school system affects the tax base. But the City chooses to put the highest dollar amount into Social Services that attracts people that will directly and adversely affect our school system in the worst way. The families we have the most problems with are a product of Petersburg Social Service! But David and Council feels we should be “Lady Liberty”, “give me your weary, tired and trifling!” When this City stops social service programs, hand outs, 10th and 11th chances, those individuals will leave Petersburg to find a “cop a squat” somewhere else and then we can start to attract a better quality resident. But by badgering the “school system” at this point with yesterdays data is irresponsible. I attend every meeting to get the correct information and not what my buddy or neighbor tells me, because you nor he could careless about the school system you see because (A) you don’t have kids attending, (B) it is zero benefit to you to see it is a resource, but only a tax burden. It is incorrect the state spends the highest on Petersburg Schools, if that has any truth it is back to again(Social Service) federal grants, because we have a bunch of blood sucking welfare,TANF, SSI, and other social service folks sucking blood from our tax dollars “we pay and they play”, and make more babies without prenatal care so they will have birth deficiencies and here the cycle starts over and over.
Petersburg schools gets government grants, but they can only used for certain things, at certain schools, in certain neighborhoods and it is solely directed out of the high percentage of welfare and TANF recipeints in this population. Those monies have nothing to do with the required city contributions at this point. Also the school system is not the highest, in this jurisdiction it is number 3-5 it is not the highest nor the lowest for funding.
The problem is in the city social service spending. If we get rid of the welfare recipients that want to make their lifestyle generational , we will get rid of most of the problems in the schools guaranteed, but everyone whats to be so freaking politically correct and not hold folks not contributing to the tax base accountable or they should leave.”
Good for you, Gloria! Fantastic!
Your points about some of us more disinterested types have some merits, but please remember that there are many PARENTS who do not contribute one whit to the schools in EVERY district, and esp one like this, so it is not entirely fair to expect those of us who do not have children who are directly effected by the success or failure of the system to have anywhere near your level of knowlege or passion on the subject.
I ask myself if there are many others here in petersburg with kids in the system that have similar sentiments. My SWAG is that there are not, that you are in the minority. Political correctness changes with location.
I haven’t been to a school board meeting or a city council meeting in the past three years. In fact, I haven’t been since both have become more like tribal council meetings in some 3rd world African country than civilized functions of a western democracy. But in the 27 years prior to that I worked closely with schools in this city as well as the entire planning district administering JTPA funding for welfare mothers in those school systems. My wife has served two terms on the PPS Board and for two years was their Budget Director. All of that was before the politization of the school board and the final slide into functional oblivion. Gloria, I think you’ll find your assumptions about most of the people on this board regarding their lack of experience with everything “Petersburg” are as off the mark as your assumptions about mine. 300 hours? You’ve got a long way to go Newbee. Wear yourself out for a few more years and then come back and see us, but remember this; if you see any progress as you go along, don’t fool yourself into believing that you have single handedly saved Petersburg. Everyone here has probably spent as much or more time than you have on the endless problems of this city, and, there has been progress. Don’t take offense and by all means but please keep trying. We need you. But don’t discount the fact that you will learn more right here in this forum than you ever will at a school board meeting or in the schools.
John,
have you ever stepped hoot into any of the schools in Petg? I have an do at least once a week. Dinwiddie spent $25 million on a school last year and it is a nice school, actually in the past 5 years they have built three school. Showing and making a point that education is high on the list of priorities.”
I have stepped into the elementary on halifax. It looked pretty nice. I have been in Walnut hill elementary. Ditto. I have been in Petersburg High, not my taste, but adequate, — with Astoundingly good facilities (you should visit the high school my wife attended in rural KS, ugly, one-story, windowless, minimal facilities — but talk about school pride! They loved that school.)
I do not doubt your criticism, however.
Dinwiddie is building schools because THEIR SCHOOL-AGE POPULATION IS EXPLODING!! Some of these families have moved there from petersburg. Many counties in VA are growing way faster than they can build schools. They have overcrowded classes, and classes in trailers. I saw it all over NOVA.
This is hardly the situation in petersburg. We have over-capacity, and there has allegedly been lying, fraud it is called, about the numbers of students here to get more free money for the administrators to play around with. (at least I read it somewhere, I haven’t seenn the numbers.) If they build new schools, instead of shutting some down, I will consider moving, and take my tax dollars with me, like so many others have.
From Barb — (for some reason her comments aren’t getting through, so she emailed this in for me to post on her behalf — if anyone else sees that this is an issue, please let me know!)
To Fel:
Your question earlier this year about whether PHS students have access to a technical center is a very good one and I am sorry that I have only come across it this week.
PHS students have access to a variety of world class technical opportunities right within their school, in fields as different as nursing and architectural design. They may also attend the Appomattox Regional Governor’s School for Arts and Technology.
However, I’m not the expert on all this. I have forwarded your question to Ms. Shirley Dobie at PHS, who can answer it in much greater detail.