March 5, 2008
Petersburg GOP to honor City History at Annual Dinner, April 4
Linas Kojelis, Chairman of the Petersburg Republican Committee (PRC) announced today that Virginia Attorney General Bob McDonnell will be the guest of honor at the third annual Lincoln-Douglass-Mahone Dinner and Silent Auction on April 4th, 6 p.m. at Old Town Catering. The dinner will kick off a dynamic schedule of events for Petersburg Republicans, as Virginians gear up for important national and statewide elections this year.
“On behalf of Petersburg’s Republicans, let me first congratulate a great American hero, Senator John McCain (R-AZ), whose sweep of this week’s primaries gave him the necessary delegates to become the GOP standard-bearer in November’s important presidential election,” said Mr. Kojelis. “It’s wonderful to see Republicans from the Pacific to the Atlantic unifying behind our nominee. And now that this important process is concluded, it’s time for Petersburg’s Republicans to gather for fellowship and fun.”
“We are thrilled that our great Attorney General, Bob McDonnell, will be joining us. Since his election he has proven himself a true friend of our city, working hand-in-glove with our law enforcement officials to make Petersburg a safer and better place,” stated Mr. Kojelis.
The dinner will feature a silent auction, including signed books and other unique items from prominent Virginia and national Republican elected officials and celebrities, as well as items and services donated by local businesses. The evening’s entertainment will feature Sounds of the Triangle - a selection of music and songs from the great entertainers who performed at the Halifax Triangle’s historic Rialto Theater in its heyday.
“There is important symbolism in the organization of our dinner,” explained Mr. Kojelis. “President Abraham Lincoln, our nation’s first Republican chief executive, monitored the Siege of Petersburg very closely and visited our beloved city twice in April 1865 after General Lee’s troops withdrew. President Lincoln’s views on civil rights and the role of African Americans in post-Civil War America were shaped greatly by abolitionist and author Frederick Douglass.”
Defending the city during the Seige was Petersburg’s own William “Billy” Mahone, a valiant leader of the Confederate forces and hero of the legendary Battle of the Crater. Feared and respected by Union troops, Major General Mahone never lost a battle during the 10-month struggle for the city. After the Civil War, Billy Mahone headed up the Readjuster Party which brought civil rights reforms to the Commonwealth, empowering recently enfranchised African Americans and establishing Virginia State University. Later the Readjusters merged with Virginia’s Republicans. Mahone became the first chairman of the Republican Party of Virginia and our first GOP Senator in Washington, D.C.
“And finally, our dinner honors General U.S. Grant, who led Union forces during the Siege and walked the streets of our city after it ended. He was later elected to two terms as America’s president on the Republican ticket, and directed national Reconstruction policies, the goals of which dovetailed with those of Mahone’s Readjusters,” explained Mr. Kojelis.
The dinner committee has designed a special menu, which draws upon Petersburg’s rich culinary and historic heritage. During the silent auction, guest will have a choice of Jeff Davis Punch (served at Starvation Balls during the 1864-1865 Siege of Petersburg) or Ronald Reagan Punch (commemorating the return of alcoholic beverages to the White House after President Carter’s Administration). The menu includes an original Walnut Hill Salad and a choice of grilled salmon or glazed ham made according to authentic 19th century southern Virginia recipes. Desert will feature the popular period Granted It’s Good Rice Pudding, a variation of authentic Civil War-era Republican Pudding favored by General U.S. Grant (with a splash of rum, of course).
For more information on the Lincoln-Douglass-Mahone Dinner and Silent Auction, please call Susan Huysman at (804) 733 6178 or visit www.GOPetersburg.org.
Lincoln-Douglas-Mahone? Let’s get real!
There certainly was no love lost between Mahone and Lincoln. The truth about Lincoln and slavery was just a political trick! He could have cared less about what happened to the slaves. He did infact make an offer to the South to continue slavery for as as as they wished if they would just come back into the Union. U.S. Grant?? He was called the “Butcher” by his own Generals and men. He did infact own slaves and still had slaves after the end of the Civil War. Billy Mahone is the only name on this list that really did anything for the blacks in this community after the Civil War,and he was hated by the whites for doing so. This sounds like a great event for people who don’t know their history very well.
Granted, Lincoln did make an offer to the south as a political expedient in order to prevent the war. Who could blame him? To some, the blood bath that would result was apparent.
Fact is, like many people of his time, he had is own racist views but, in the long run he knew slavery would not last and did the right thing when he had the opportunity.
Check your history again. The first offer by Lincoln was for 29 years, the second was forever. The bloodbath was well into play when this offer was made.
It was also a plan of Lincolns to ship all slaves to South American Countries where slavery was still permitted.
I wonder why we hear and read so little about Lincoln in Petersburg! Could it be that the people in Petersburg know more than we give them credit for?
Nothing to check. Lincoln was being pragmatic. He knew that slavery would fall of it’s own weight.
He stated that if he could save the union by keeping slavery he would do so knowing that at some time in the future the problem would be corrected.
We outlawed, by Constitutional amendment, Alcohol FOREVER in this country.
The issue here is not Slavery or what Lincoln did or did not do. The issue is
suggesting that Lincoln, Mahone and Grant were like three pees in a pod, which they were not! Having these three names together at a Republican function seems like someone has their wires crossed.
” Could it be that the people in Petersburg know more than we give them credit for?”
That’s unlikely, as the numbers don’t bear that out. While you are correct that Lincoln was not an abolitionist, it was not because he believed in slavery.
I think the main problem with a special species of southerner is that history has tended to make southern leaders seem worse than they were, and northern leaders better than they were. Point taken. But to imply that grant, who is believed to have inherited slaves from his father-in-law because there is a record that he freed a slave 1859, was an enthusiastic slave-owner is far worse sin than the overly simplistic good vs. evil implication (mostly by factual ommision) of northern texbooks.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/who_was_the_last_us_president_to.html
Grant may have been called a butcher, but he certainly wasn’t as cold blooded a butcher as stonewall jackson, or the renouned terrorist nathan forrest.
Grant, like lincoln, was actually extremely charitable to the character of the southern people as whole, certainly more charitable than modern conferderistas are to them:
“The (South) was burdened with an institution abhorrent to all civilized people not brought up under it, and one which degraded labor, kept it in ignorance and enervated the governing class… Soon the slaves would have outnumbered the masters, and, not being in sympathy with them, would have risen in their might and exterminated them. The war was expensive to the South, as well as to the North, both in blood and treasure, but it was worth all it cost.” (Grant, 1885, v1, p507-8)
You guys whould realize that the reason southerners are considered not-too-well- educated is due to the anti-education policies of the elite landowners to prevent the social mobility of both poor whites AND blacks. (esp. since such education was to be paid for with revenue taken from their farms) If the poor whites could get an education, they could become more than an ignorant laborer or an ignorant porch-sitter — and thus threaten the feudal system. If you are from the south, you are probably not only related to a reb warrior or two, but also eight poor whites who gladly were brought in from the various hill countries to fight the klan by the reconstructionists. You can’t have it both ways: Either embrace your ignorance, or educate yourself.
A lot of southerners, both black and white, have NO CLUE why the south has remained an economic backwater even with it’s vast resources, excellent ports and mild weather. It is because the south refused to change even AFTER the civil war. The landed chose to keep the poor ignorant and hence the labor cheap. They did this by inciting poor white against blacks, all the while saying that the “dirty carbetbaggers” were doing the reverse. Most of the carpet baggers were pointing out that this was a rich vs poor situation, but fear of being lowest on the totem pole was stronger than logic in the south, and much energy was wasted on all sides that could have been spent developing the south’s potential. The south until recently was like africa: vast human potential and natural wealth held back by political pettyness that trumped intellectualism of all kinds.
“The last stage of genocide is denial.”
Sure, they weren’t three peas in a pod. You suggest Mahone was the only honorable one of the three. What about General Thomas, who was born in VA, but actually had enough sense, and morality, to chose to fight for the union?
I am suspicious of the locals attempts to lionize Mahone, whose main accompishment, if I remember correctly, was to find an issue that MOST virginians could support: “We don’t want to pay back West Virginia’s share of the loans Richmond took out.” They actually had a case, even though it played in the north to popular opinion of southerners being deadbeats, going all the way up to Jefferson. The readjusters managed to keep the klansters at bay for a little longer than most southern states, until eventually the anti-edcuation Byrd finally took over the entirety of Virginia politics, kicking the pro-growth rebuplicans and strange-bedfellow readjusters out of office. Mahone eventually became a klanocrat, I believe. (you might want to check that, I am not a historian)
Indige, Your last I think we can agree on.
Carpetbagger kinda reminds me of another group by the same name who in 1865 came to Petersburg and promised all the ex slaves 40 acres and a mule. Guess what? The Mule died and the 40 acres were kept by the landowners. The sorry part is that some believed it and are still waiting for theirs. As far as Grant being called a “Bucther” by his own is because of the death count of his own army which in the most part was caused by some of his unwise decisions. As far as Stonewall Jackson, seems I recall that he taught Sunday School in Lexington,Va. Seems the black folks up thataway loved him for it. The Sunday School that he taught was Black! Gee, imagine that, a cold hearted Black Sunday School teacher. I guess the bottom line to this dinner thing is that, they have three bad apples to talk about.
Apple cobbler anyone???
“Carpetbagger kinda reminds me of another group by the same name who in 1865 came to Petersburg and promised all the ex slaves 40 acres and a mule. Guess what? The Mule died and the 40 acres were kept by the landowners.”
You have an odd, yet charmingly folksy sense of humor. The mule died? Did the Klan kill it, like they did anyone who voted republican, white or black? The blacks didn’t get their fourty acres, yes, that’s because the north eventually decided it had better things to do than to eternally try to change y’all. Just like some say it’s time to stop trying to change the arabs. (thomas friedman recently described iraq being esp. troublesome because BOTH sides of the civil war are like the South)
Stonewall was actually HATED by his students at VMI, that is well-known. Sunday school teacher? What a hypocrite. Did you know that another famous lexingtonian, who graduated second in his class at west point (though ignorant confederistas like to say he was first) regretted EVER having studied the knowlege of war, and willfully walked out-of-step when ever the VMI played marches while he was President of Washington College. Stonewall reminds me of a petty muslim mullah, who will justistfy ANY depravity with a reference to the Creator, and, yes, SOME of his victims will thank him for it.
Three bad apples to talk about? And who are your heros, praychance? I am not promising anyone anything, my friend. Just battling self-serving ignorance on all sides. Your side does not have a monopoly on it, I’m afraid.
indigenous,
You are, of course, well aware of the phrase about winners and what they get to do with history. A big gripe of people of your stripe is that the north pretty much wrote the history of the civil war, or the WONA or whatever.
You should also consider that it was the violent detachment of the democratic party that won the political war in south AFTER the armies left the field, and so it was the klan and their friends in the democratic press that got to define that very diverse, and sometimes very well meaning group that are today called carpetbaggers and scalawags. Just look closely at the names they called them, and you well see more than a little class snobbery. Since I doubt you are a Randolf yourself, you should be sympathetic, if anything, to the scalawags (like General Longstreet), but because you don’t know nearly as much history as you think you do, you like the old aristrocracy, and the generals who sucked-up to them.
Oopps! I was wrong about something. I read up on Mahone and he NEVER became a klanocrat. He became a republican, and didn’t do too well as one. Took a lot of moral courage that even folks like Lee did not have.
From my reading, the man should be lionized not so much for his political achievements, but for the role he played in developing the economy of VA both before and after the war. His civil engineering feats rival his efforts to help make blacks productive (beyond picking cotton and such) citizens.
Certainly a better southern hero than some pasty looking sherrif blocking a cute little black girl from going to school, which reminds me a bit of indigenous.
Putting questions of historical interpretation aside (I get more excited about the present/future…) –
Think about if you were planning a local Republican dinner. What would be the theme around which the civilized debauchery would be organized? All the progress in this largely Democratic town that the Republicans can claim? Bush? McCain? Hmmm… How about Republicans of days past associated with Petersburg’s importance in American history, said history being widely viewed as undermarketed/underappreciated outside Petersburg (for the lack of a better way of putting it)?
Perhaps there would have been less brow wrinkling if the dinner were to honor each of these prominent figures separately over time…e.g., 2008 is the honor Mahone year, 2009 is the honor Lincoln year, etc. Dunno. But that period menu sounds good. Rice pudding w/ rum? I’m intrigued.
:-)
Brenda, what you say is true and I think that it was probably suggested that these men be honored separatly, but as I have run across before, once a hard headed Yankee makes up his mind, there is no changing it. At least we now know his true way of thinking even if it is politically correct. It may also be of interest to know that I just returned from a Klan meeting only its spelled with a “C”. Carpetbagger is correct in the fact that I don’t know much about history. I get all my history lessons from riled up yankees who think they know it all.
Yes, that Rice pudding and Rum sure does sound good.
Well Brenda, if the republicans were to ask ME, I would tell them that they should not try to sell the residents of petersburg on musty old historical figures, esp. ones that do not fit easily into what the definition of a republican is (taft or teddy roos. would be better choices for that) — nor should they try to sell them on such modern dixiecrats like Forbes or Jerry kilgore. Bush is an impossible sell, and Mccain would be kinda hard too. I would focus on the IDEAS of republicanism: self-reliance vs dependency, freedom vs. taxation, rewarding of creativity and hard work. Introduce them to the writings of Thomas Sowell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell
Booker T. Washington and Clarence Thomas.
Unfortunately, the current crop of Tom Delay type republicans makes the GOP a hard sell to many rebublicans right now. Most people associate the party right now with fiscal incompetence, corruption, closet homosexuality, the Stars and Bars, and religious chauvanism. It’s sad.
” I get all my history lessons from riled up yankees who think they know it all.”
The last refuge of the uneducated.
“At least we now know his true way of thinking even if it is politically correct.”
I am probably the LEAST politically correct person you could ever meet. Just read my posts, and consider where we are.
Petersburg really is a place where the civil war rages on. Bully! Good of the Pburgpn.net to let combatants continue the conflict on unbloody terms. All arguments really do seem to ignore that slaves rarely cared about motives, but were happy with the results. That said, we should be less concerned about party affiliations than by results, not merely intentions or platitudes or promises.
Certainly a better southern hero than some pasty looking sherrif blocking a cute little black girl from going to school, which reminds me a bit of indigenous.
Guess it’s time to flee, dem yankees is after me with both barrels and they done brought along the sherrif(whatever that is,something Arab I guess).
….. which all reminds me of Faulkner’s famous quote about the South where, “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.”
We’ll have a swell dinner. Y’all come!
All - for some I had to approve some of the comments on this thread and a few others; when approved they were inserted based on their time stamps, not the order in which they were approved relative to previously-posted comments –on this thread back up to comment #16 to see if you’ve missed anything.
Also, the republicans might want to emphasize the appeal of identifying themselves as a self-made “winner,” (whether being a winner means holding down a job and doing it well, being a good mother, or being a tycoon) versus the often more seductive appeal of being a “victim” of others’ making.
Less politically correct around here, people who care about traditional rebuplican values (as opposed to “God, Guns, and Greed”) should gently explain to petersburgers how southern culture goes against what traditional repulicanism stands for (before nixon’s Southern Strategy) I’ll let Thomas Sowell thoughts speak for me:
7) What some portray as “authentic black culture” is actually a relic of a highly disfunctional white southern redneck culture. Such a dysfunctional white culture Sowell maintains, in turn derived from the ‚ÄòCracker culture‚Äô of certain regions in Britain, mainly the harsh English borderlands, origin of many ‘cracker’ migrants. Sowell gives a number of examples that he regards as supporting the lineage, e.g.
an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship,… and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery.
Sowell also provides figures to support his argument that there was a far bigger divide between the cracker/redneck culture of the Southern and Applachian regions and the culture of more northerly Americans, than between whites and blacks. E.g. Northern blacks tried to stop redneck blacks coming up from the South, and the same happened between northern whites and redneck whites. This thesis is the title essay of Sowell’s book Black Rednecks and White Liberals.[13]
I should know. My grandfather moved from Arkansas to Indiana during the depression. He had a redneck name, and there was so much bias against white southerners as being lazy and stupid in the midwest that he went by the name “jack” to fit in. His co-workers, and eventually his underlings never knew his real name. In the words of african americans, he “passed” as a northerner.
And BTW, indigenous, Sowell is anything but “politically correct” as you understand the term. He is known as “uncle” Thomas Sowell by the likes of Jackson and Sharpton.
Lordy,lordy…yesterday we were eating apple cobbler, today we are eating at Craker Barrel. I just can’t wait for that Rice Pudding w/Rum…….
Where I come from there is a strong distinction between the terms Redneck & Cracker. To us, a Redneck is an agricultural person who gets that color from pushing a mule, horse or tractor up and down a field from dawn to near dusk. The Redneck is conservative by nature, but in the sense that nature and other wordly things ought to be conserved and valued as precious gifts from Heaven. The Redneck is religious, humanistic, thoughtful and forgiving. He is perhaps not well-educated in a formalistic sense, but he is grounded in experience: he knows the ways of the world and possesses old-fashioned common sense. (All of this applies to either the male or female version of the Redneck). On the other hand, the Cracker is a forlorn, wasteful creature, a ne’er do well who is boastful,cowardly, sometime cunning person who, however, is lacking basic good sense. He is a liar and a thief when opportunity presents. He thinks the world owes him and he resent all who do well by industry & hard work.
Anyway, this is the way we measure and define the two types where I come from.
Whoops,
My last entry should have read:
Yesterday we were eating Apple Cobbler and today we are eating “GRITS” with a bunch of Rednecks at Cracker Barrel. Can’t wait for the Rice Pudding w/rum….
There is a good chance that our history teachers may have lied to some of us at one time or the other! The basic focus of this article was the Lincoln-Douglas-Mahone Dinner. Because of all of the “name calling” in this article, I’d like to share a local and historical view of such naming.
How many times do you hear the term “Retiring to the North?” Possibly you were taught that Pearl Harbor was an “unprovoked” attack on America. Many more questions within our American history are not as buried / obscure as they once were. Although some still like to hide / massage many facts and truths of American history to further their agenda, they can’t for one main reason –> “You can’t change history!”
Telling the truth does not make a person un-Patriotic! Some Democrats and Republicans both, among others of the ruling establishment, are relying on such stupid “patriotism” to kill off challenges. All of my ancestors in America from 1650, Etc. have been patriotic Americans: http://www.petersburgexpress.com/Moody_Veterans.html
Yesterday someone mentioned this article and questionable responses, and I said to myself, “d?©j?† vu.”
Only about a month ago I had mentioned to a Petersburg Republicans group how silly / insulting the name “Lincoln-Douglas-Mahone Dinner” was in contrast to the honest history of Petersburg and Virginia. The answer I got was something to the tune of, “this is my world, and when it becomes your world, you can name the dinner.” Needless to say, that was my last Petersburg Republican meeting I wanted to attend!
Now what kind of Republican was Lincoln? Here is one view from outside the South: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-VQpY1NJM
I don think the judge is a “redneck”, “cracker”, or a Southerner, I believe he’s Italian!
I do realize Lincoln was a Republican, but so is President George Bush and Senator “Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Iran” McCain among others.
Now what kind of a Republican was Mahone? Mahone was quite a character for sure: http://www.petersburgexpress.com/CraterStory.html One can review some of Mahone’s friends and enemies at this site to see where his loyalties were and all can make up their own mind.
Virginia and the South had its own President for about the whole United States terms of Lincoln. Mahone played a big part within Virginia’s / Petersburg’s four year Confederate States government. Petersburgers, Black and White fought as Southerners because of Lincoln’s “invasion” of Virginia. That’s a fact!
As a local Virginian from a couple of Virginia’s FFV lines, I’d say by quite a few remarks in this article, I seem to be an evil obstacle to making the world perfect. My feelings are not hurt because I realize some people “not from here” have always been and felt that way.
It has nothing to do with me personally. It is their problem. The problem has nothing to do with the South except that the South lies convenient for their aggressions. They cover up their emptiness, hatred, hypocrisy, and insignificance by identifying someone like me or the “South” as the “Enemy”. My forefathers saw this clearly! It was that kind of society and people that they fought to be free of!
Sowell’s terms are understood a little differently, as you know, but I understand what you are saying. To put it simply, if you are fluent with the great southern book “To kill a mockingbird”: the redneck is the poor farmer that atticus helps: he is basically good, hardworking, and self reliant — but he is also ignorant and when push comes to shove he exhibits a bit of xenophobia. The cracker is the guy who beats his daughter and blames it on black guy. Right? In the north, we don’t take that nuanced a view.
G.A.M.,
“They cover up their emptiness, hatred, hypocrisy, and insignificance by identifying someone like me or the ‚ÄúSouth‚Äù as the ‚ÄúEnemy‚Äù. ”
Are you lazy? Willfully uneducated? (By developed world standards) If not, you are not the enemy, no matter your place of origin. If you are, then yes, you are the enemy.
Sure, some blacks fought for the confederacy. A canard. Some fought with the british during the revolutionary war too, in return for promises of freedom — NOT BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IN THE MONARCHY. The poor fellows got sent to Sierra Leone for their troubles. Some petersburg blacks even fought the north because they were free and hoped to gain gain status in their home community by fighing for it. Some even owned slaves and didn’t want them taken away. A lot of honoring they got. I don’t see any confederate monuments immortalizing black warriors. The whole story is a canard because the VAST OVERWHELMING MAJORITY who fought, fought for the union, just like you’d expect. Something that seems to be erased from southern history is that large areas of EVERY SINGLE southern state saw thousands of WHITES leave home and fight for the union. Yes, the evil, hateful, North, with their taste for union, economic development, and unease with slavery.
Anyway, I never said Lincoln was a saint. And G., I barely know who Mahone was since he was a virginian and I am not, so please don’t associate him with me (please tell me where in your site it says he’s a bad guy, I couldn’t find the relevant link) — he doesn’t deserve that. Neither does Lincoln, who actually liked southerners and sorta was one himself. He certainly was a redneck. In fact, I didn’t give a lick about the civil war before I moved down here. I learned a bit about it because I had started hearing a lot of foolish nonsense about it immediately upon moving here, a lot of it from hostile — I mean loving — southerners.
People don’t retire to the north because it is cold and expensive. Mostly cold. I moved down here because I saw that the reconstruction was actually gonna happen this time. Look around. Most of your leaders are from the north. Mark Warner, Tim Kaine, Jim Webb, Trani (VCU pres.), richmond’s school superintendant, The presidents of Phillip morris and meadwestvaco — none from the south!! Meanwhile, leaders from virginia are constantly going to jail for taking a $30 bribe. Property values will continue to go up! What you don’t like about northerners isn’t our hateful ways (after all, the south has most of the world beat on that score), it’s our honesty.
PS. Petersburg’s “40 Acres & A Mule” story.
Highly recommended are two Petersburg books by Willaim D. Henderson http://www.petersburgexpress.com/Henderson.html >> THE UNREDEEMED CITY: Reconstruction in Petersburg Virginia: 1865-1874 & GILDED AGE CITY: Politics, Life and Labor in Petersburg, Virginia, 1874-1879.
You may find these books at Richard Bland’s library or the Petersburg Public Library.
For those who wish to become better informed about Petersburg’s history and that of the South, you will find in depth research of Petersburg’s Union occupation troops records, Petersburg’s Freedman’s Bureau records and other well researched local history that some history teachers will not dare to tell. A sketch of one such story from Henderson’s research is a familiar one, and one which I share at this link:
Petersburg’s “40 Acres & A Mule!” story: http://www.petersburgexpress.com/Reconstruction.html
Those who embrace the religion of “presentism”, they might do well to look in the mirror in their judgements.
Might I suggest we organize something akin to the following: Tomato Fight. Might not resolve whose understanding of history is ‘right’, but would sure be a hoot (and maybe a catharsis too).
Oh, and a great tomato ooze fest might be good for tourism — from the Tomatina website: “Approximately 20,000‚Äì40,000 tourists come to the tomato fight, multiplying by several times Bu?±ol’s normal population of 9,000.”
Howdy Y’all, what a great stream of conversation, complete with historical jabs, uppercuts, left and right hooks to the head and body. No knockout punch, but that’s a good thing, we can just leave the decision to the judge, aka, Father Time. We shall learn to live together or die separated from the love of our neighbors.
The Purple Bridges Dinner was organized by the Petersburg Republican Committee to bring folk together. Of course we could honor Lincoln one year and Mahone the next and Grant the next, and Douglass the next, but that would of course draw separate audiences and help to keep us SEPARATED.
Come on out and listen to our Attorney General. He has shown that he supports the public safety on the streets of Petersburg. We need to continue to agree to disagree without being disagreeable lest we be reduced to starting another civil war.
Hats off to Linas who has shown the willingness to reach out to all segments of the community. The ill stated misqoute that G. Ashley made in post #26 did not get by me. You quoted someone as saying “this is my world and when it becomes your world, you can name the dinner.” Your paraphrase did not hit the mark, not even close. You were told essentially, that a democratic process had already taken place and the name could not be changed at this late stage in the process. Also, chairmanship of the party would be available to those who wished to lead the process, not dictate. I believe we should take a look at why one would think that the dinner Lincoln-Douglas-Mahone is “silly” or “insulting”? Are we ever to come together or do you propose… separation today, separation tomorrow, separation forever?
I think not, but if so, I am open for discussion. Was segregation better? Should we kill the damn Yankees, murder the rebels, hang the niggers, shoot the master, incite the riots, war, war, war, or find a new way to live?
Purple Bridges my friend. Let’s build bridges.
Whooooo! #26 — Let’s get the facts straight. I quoted no one in #26, and please read the line again. In fact, I understood the response from the source as clearly as if heard yesterday.
…something to the tune of…” is not a quote. I’m fine with either version, yours or mine.
I commend those who work hard to mend old wounds of days gone by. Building bridges can be a great way to create a better community and world if it is done honestly. I commend anyone that works honesty toward that end.
I do not want to throw tommatos at anyone today. I recommend re-reading this complete post. It is quite informative.
Amen (comment 31 - building bridges, agreeing to disagree with our neighbors and moving on). And I personally thank the Petersburg Republican’s outreach to the Attorney General (and the Attorney General’s interest in Petersburg) — a most productive step in our community’s efforts to turn the corner and move forward.
W.F. Buckley is gone but I feel his spirit here on both sides.
I tread lightly among giants.
http://www.petersburgexpress.com/Reconstruction.html
I read your link, my friend. And I thank you much for pointing me to the books. Amazon has no copies available, so I will check the library.
You are doing what is called data-mining. The political situation in the north was hardly monolithic. There were many powerful moderates who wanted nothing more than the relatively easy task of bringing the south back into the union — by not enfranchising the blacks. There were also many “radical” republicans, whose opinions varied, but at the most extreme felt that former confederate enthusiasts should be forever disenfranchised, many jailed, and their lands seized and given to their former slaves. This had its own logic, as many of these plantation owners were in no way loyal to the reestablished union. Hence the genesis of the “40 acres” rumor. You and Al Sharpton like to keep the memory of this alive. You point to the fact that a few charlatans came down with the schoolteachers and businessmen. But really, do you think the fleecing of the innocent (hardly a “yankee” monopoly in the south) by a few sheisters compares with terrorising the women from the north who came to teach school to blacks, and the many good, honest, southern whites who choose to side with the uplifting of the former slaves? Selling overpriced pegs versus hanging men and women, black and white, from trees. Coming at them at night in large groups, killing them secretly when there was scrutiny from washington, leaving their bodies dangling in the public square when scrutiny was lacking. THAT is your beloved democratic southern heritage that really only started changing with martin luther king. I, as a northern white, am partially tarred with this history, and I am PISSED by it. How can I ever get liberals and black radicals totally off my back about the past as long as there are people like you whining that we don’t honor the memory of lee and jackson enough?
“Presentism,” whatever that is, cannot be as bad as Pastism. I am tired of arguing ancient history with you, when even your RECENT history damns you. What year was it when y’all were forced to let blacks into the petersburg library? I’m surprised you didn’t shut it down. I’m sure you would’ve if you weren’t outnumbered by blacks.
As much as I am sure I have many disagreements with Atkin-Smith, this carpetbagger returns the handshake, and offers his hand to any confederista that will at least read the book “Those Terrible Carbetbaggers!”
If you are interested in the story of reconstruction from the viewpoint of the orignial carpetbaggers, the memoirs “Yazoo” and “A Fool’s Errand”
http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Errand-Novel-During-Reconstruction/dp/1596055995/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204991392&sr=8-1
Selling pegs!! Is that your best?
Here’s an amazon review of the book “A fool’s errand” By reconstructionist REPUBLICAN Tourgee:
By M. W. Stone (peterborough, cambs england) - See all my reviews
The era of “Reconstruction” in the aftermath of the Civil War remains one of the most controversial periods of American history, furiously argued over to this day, and “A Fools Errand” is one of the most valuable windows into it that we moderns, and especially the general reader, have access to, giving us an account of those times “straight from the horse’s mouth”.
Tourge?© was right in the middle of the events he describes, as one of the bitterly (and often unfairly) derided “carpetbaggers” in North Carolina, where he held various public offices, principally as a judge. A Union soldier, he settled there in 1865 with all kinds of high hopes for the rebuilding of the defeated South. Fourteen years later he returned North, utterly defeated and disillusioned.
All his and his fellows’ work had been thwarted by a ruthless and efficient terrorist campaign, enjoying the near-total support of the local (white) community, and which the authorities in Washington were quite unable, and, as things dragged on, increasingly unwilling, to combat in any effective way.
In some ways this book has an oddly “modern” sound, perhaps reflecting the fact that much of the story remains so relevant today. Tourge?©’s observations on his hero’s (and by implication his own) resolution to enlist in 1861 display a dry cynicism worthy of the 21st Century, while this hero’s letter to a northern Senator complains of the mishandling of the reconstruction programme in terms which anticipate later criticisms of another “reconstruction” following the fall of Baghdad.
It is interesting to note Tourge?©’s complaints about the persistent tendency, even in the North, to romanticise the southern cause. He grumbles that before long, at this rate, men will be ashamed to admit that they ever fought for the Union. And this was written in 1879, over 60 years before “Gone With The Wind” and even 35 years before “Birth of a Nation”. Clearly the will to sympathise with the fallen foe (once they were safely defeated) began far earlier than most people realise.
Yet he himself can show, if not sympathy, then at least understanding of the feelings of those who so brutally destroyed his work. One of the best things about the book is its ability, much rarer now in an age which takes colour-blind democracy for granted, to get inside the heads of those who rejected it - who saw themselves (and were seen by many others) as serving an honourable cause, though by the most dishonourable methods.
Tourge?© gives a vivid illustration of the levels of resistance which even a totally defeated society can bring to bear against the efforts of well meaning outsiders, even when the latter are backed by seemingly overwhelming force. At one point (Ch XXI) with an eerie topicality, he equates the depth of Southern commitment to white supremacy with “the zeal of Islam”, and when (Ch XLV) he speaks of north and south as “convenient names for two distinct, hostile and irreconcilable ideas.- two civilisations” he again anticipates the language of the “war on terror”. One recalls those lines of Kipling’s
“And the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased
And the epitaph drear ‘A fool lies here,
who tried to hustle the east’”.
Substitute “south” for “east” and that pretty well sums it up. But perhaps there is another (middle) eastern example in our own day for those with eyes to see it.
This book is Tourge?©’s “retrospect” on that part of his life. Sadder but infinitely wiser, he calls himself a “Fool” for his youthful aspirations, yet one somehow feels that that he retains a sympathy for that young idealist, and deep down still thinks the young Tourge?© (alias “Comfort Servosse”) a better man than his world-weary older self. I am reminded of the survivor from World War One, who dedicated his memoirs “With deep emotion, to the man I used to be”.
Here’s a review of yazoo:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.meacham.html
The same sad story repeated itself all across the south. Of course, some will be able to find a northerner who had “beady eyes!” or a freed-slave who beleived in “negro-supremacy” or even a documented liar or two, but these folks who lionize the old southern democrats are the spiritual kin of those who centuries from now who will honor the memories of Hamas, Hezbollah, and al Qaida. It’s really that simple.
Has the smoke cleared? It was a wonderful trip while it lasted. History lessons on the Civil War, feelings of blacks during that period. A fine lunch we had together with peas in the pod, apple cobbler, tomatoes, grits and rice pudding w/rum. It may be of interest to carpetbagger that things aren’t always as they appear. You were had! I am not a Redneck (your version) or nor am I a Cracker. I am like yourself, a Yankee!
My family didn’t immigrate to this country until the early 1900,s. Today we extend from the Northern most borders to the border with Mexico. We stretch from the East Coast to the West. Our family consists of Whites, Blacks, Native Americans and Hispanics. Were all like a box of crayons, all different colors, but get along very nicely in the same box. It’s alright that you insulted my education and lack of education, you were led to believe that. I guess the reason I started this whole thing is maybe I felt sorry for Brenda. She works very hard on this site and often the comment sections are blank! How about it Brenda, did we set a new record? See you at the party…..maybe
You fooled me. My family is from the south AND new england but they live everywhere too.
Well, gee, thanks for the kindly thoughts my direction. But don’t comment for me - do it for each other. :-)
Oh, and this thread is not (yet) the record-breaker, but it sure gets an A for effort.
>>>What year was it when y’all were forced to let blacks into the petersburg library? I’m surprised you didn’t shut it down. I’m sure you would’ve if you weren’t outnumbered by blacks.<<<
Oh put a sock in it Mr. Carpetbagger. I’m from the north, I’ve lived there all my life and still do, although I am a frequent visitor to Petersburg, a city which I must admit I’ve fallen in love with. Your behavior and your incredible arrogance are embarrassing the hell out of me. You know and I know that things weren’t much better in the north, and that while the south had its legalized segregation, we “up here” have always had white flight and hordes of real estate agents engaged in “Racial Steering”. As a black friend originally was from Alabama once told me in reference to the north, “What makes you think it’s so much better for me up here?” The answer is, it’s not much better, but since 1830, big-mouth white Yankees have been making heap big propaganda that it is.
The cultural egocentrism of you and others like you is not and has never been appreciated by Southerners. Stop trying to reconstruct what you can’t or won’t understand. People are happy the way they are and they don’t need to change to make you happy. If you live in Petersburg and you don’t like it there, if you feel you are “tarred” with the Southerner’s history, as you so eloquently put it, then exercise your right as a free man to move. Give your neighbors, as well as yourself, a break. Stop trying to remake the South’s people in your own image and stop desperately trying to live up to your screen name of “Carpetbagger”. Go somewhere where you will be happy, and therefore less inclined to make those around you miserable. There are plenty of planes, trains, busses and well constructed roads which will take you to a place where people are more to your liking.
Oh yeah, a few quick points:
For your information, it’s not “God, Guns and Greed”, (your words), it’s “God, Guns and Guts”…. “Greed” is the northern characteristic, “Guts” is the southern one.
About monuments to blacks who fought for the South - if you need to see a monument dedicated to Southern blacks, then go to Arlington National Cemetery, to the Confederate section and look at the monument to the South. You’ll see a black man marching in uniform as well as a black woman who is holding an infant handed to her by a Confederate soldier. No, it’s not a “Canard” – it’s quite real. http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/csa-mem.htm
And about all those blacks who fought for the union, “as you would expect” (your words), they were not all volunteers. I’ve got lots more where these came from.
Rankins, Diana, Age 66 Arkansas – from “The Slave Narratives”
“Papa said they picked him up and carried him off. He said they pressed him into the breastworks of the war. He didn’t want to go to war. Mr. Hayes kept him hid out but they stole him and took him to fight
Williams, Soldier - Arkansas - from “The Slave Narratives”
“I was sway to Louisville to j’ine the Yankees one day. I was seared to death all the time. They put us in front to shield themselves. They said they was fighting for us–for our freedom. Piles of them was killed. I got a flesh wound. I’m scarred up some. We got plenty to eat. I was in two or three hot battles. I wanted to quit but they would catch them and shoot them if they left. I didn’t know how to get out and get away.
Finally, about the South being an economic backwater, as you so eloquently and haughtily put it, maybe part of the reason had to do with the mismanagement and plundering which occurred during Reconstruction. I have tons more where these came from. They weren’t the exceptions, they were the rule.
The Real Lincoln, by Thomas DiLorenzo
Corruption and State Debt during Reconstruction, Pages 213 - 214
Many of the Republican Party operatives who dominated Southern state legislatures during Reconstruction literally sold their votes for cash on a daily basis: The going rate was just under $300 per vote. In Florida during the latter years of Reconstruction, black state legislators were being “discriminated” against – the bribes they were being offered to vote for railroad subsidies and the like were smaller than the bribes paid to white legislators. They convened a Black Caucus in which they fixed the price of their bribes at roughly the same price being charged by the white legislators. The expansion of government provide myriad opportunities for bribery, and the Republican Party opportunists took great advantage of them.
Republican Governor Daniel Chamberlain’s Reflections 1901,
in the Atlantic Monthly
Before the war, the average expense of the annual session of the legislature in South Carolina did not exceed $20000. For the 6 years following reconstruction, the average annual expense was over $320000, the expense of the session of 1871 alone being $671000! The total legislative expenses for the 6 years was $2,339,000!
The time is right to bring out another “box of crayons”!
Since Indigenous has shared his family to make a point, I thought to make a similar point. That fact is that my nice family today and yesterday also consists of Whites, Blacks, Native Americans, Germans, Jews, Scots, Northerners, Southerners, Etc. All nice, beautiful, and colorful Americans!
Like many, I take deep pride in my Petersburg and Virginia Southern roots and legacy. I make no excuses for that! Most people are proud of their family, birthplace, and heritage. North, South, East & West!
As Americans, we all have a duty and right to honor such heritage. Some ugly people would like to take our legacy and American culture from some of us today. That’s not going to happen!.
During our 8 years living in Germany, it was quite noticeable that the Northern Germans talked about the Southern Germans like dogs, and commented on how stupid they were. Of course the opposite was the case there also!
Here, if it is the regional bad and ugly that someone wants to heap on the South, I can sure pile more of the same bad and ugly on the North, West, and Etc. as high, and possibly even higher. A few examples of many: One could “curl up” with this book:
http://www.curledup.com/warcrime.htm
More “mining” would provide: http://www.geocities.com/xeng12b/millworkers.html The Union plans to use Chemical Warfare at Petersburg reflects additional human urges over others here.
Unfortunately, many Americans in the past, as it is in our society today, do not have the best track record in the human rights arena! Some are still taking advantage of people, and killing others. In some respects, our country is more divided today than it has ever been.
I’m not bitter today that certain people committed genocide on my “Native American” ancestors. I’m not bitter the Quakers treated my g-….grandmother like a slave and treated her badly. That was a long time ago, and I just know about it! At times as a Virginian, the Lincoln lie that lives throughout our society does bother me!
Fortunately, we have access to more information then ever before.
In review, I had thought this post started about the Lincoln-Douglass-Mahone name grouping. I followed that subject with some good honest local information to make a point, and now again for others to make up their own minds about how the naming convention may / or may not bring people together. Lincoln is like Satan to many in the South http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-VQpY1NJM Now better than ever, one can judge based on more additional detail in the comments above..
I think we can all agree that making ugly assumptions and remarks about people and their families without knowing them is not a nice trait.
Look Guys,
I’m just giving back a little of the constant yankee bashing that is like a weekly sacrament around here.
I could probably outdo y’all in describing ugly abuses in the north during the civil war, esp. by poor irish immigrants to blacks. And I can outline all kinds of examples of racism in the north, past and present.
I’ve even heard northern black people say, ignorantly, that they PREFER the southern racism, as at least it is “honest.” Again, you are comparing real estate tactics and the basic desires of groups to live with their own kind, something that we also see manifest in the south, with terrorism.
The northern black person may have been tired of other northerners THINKING negative thoughts about them, but would not have prefered being lynched, shot in the head by a sniper, and denied access to the good schools — if it really came down to a choice, but their point that there was racism in the north was not lost on me.
Sure, there’s racism everywhere. The japanese have racial contempt for koreans, Indonesians are suspicious of chinese like arabs are Jews. It is our common problem. One big difference between the north and south I noticed was that simple, unintelligent racism was only expressed to me by certain individuals, in a confessional tone. Here, when it is spoken to me, it is like it is assumed EVERYONE agrees with them.
Have either one of you read the reviews of these books? Did you read the writings of civil rights pioneers in the fifties when you were in college? How can you equate conditions in the north with the south? A lot of the racial conditions in the north had a lot to do with what had happened to those poor people when they lived in the south. A lot of black people who were free, and even landowning, were driven from the south after the civil war by democratic terror, and hence came north virtually pennyless.
But look, I am actually tired of chronicallizing basic southern history for y’all. I realize no group is without some ugly historical baggage. I realize even many of the the massacred indian tribes actually owned slaves AFTER the civil war, and refused to give them up. I realize people owned slaves at one time in NYC even. I realize there is still slavery in parts of africa, and de facto slavery today in the gulf peninsula, and in bodillos all over the world.
My point is, you say I am ugly for pointing out the sins of the south. I say: Stop trying to deny them, and maybe people will stop thinking YOU are ugly. Maye we both have a point.
Bill, nest time I am in arlington cemetery, I will check out your monument. Thank you. And, BTW, it’s not that I feel tarred “down here” by southern history. I felt it in the north, and even was made to feel it by europeans when I lived there. You could say “look man, I’m not from alabama” and they’d say “yes, but it is part of your country,” which makes me sympathetic to the large parts of new england that wanted to seceed from the south before the civil war, for pride’s sake alone.
This is the danger of bringing up forgotten history. There seems to be a small yet very vocal group of people in the richmond area that really want to keep the memory of the abuses of some northerners in the south alive. What these people don’t seem to realize is that there is a great deal more buried history — history that was buried for the good of national unity.
If you want me to shut up about klan terror, then maybe you should shut up about yankee trickery.
When I lived in Mexico in the mid/late-1990s (think Salinas in exile, peso devaluation, a bailout from the US), when casual acquaintances would attach to me whatever ill they felt about the US generally due to whatever unpopular policy issue of the day was at hand, I would point out that just as not all Mexicans are like or agree with the likes of Salinas, not all Americans are like or agree with whatever US policy or leader is the topic of conversation. I pointed out that, indeed, lively debates such as those here ensue. By drawing parallels to their own complex political reality, it was easier to show that individuals are just that, individuals. That seemed to help deflect some of the unwarranted coolness initially sent my direction.
I’d like to add, I’m probably not THAT bad a person, and I’m sure that G.A.M. is probably not either. I knew a german guy in college who, when drunk one time, told me that, in his opinion, the german army (not the nazis) were the REAL heros of WWII, since they so bravely took on the whole world against incredible odds. I felt a little bad for him, since he kinda had a right to, and even a point to defend — even though history has so thouroughly condemned his grandfathers while totally lionizing mine and the russians even though they were not without fault also.
My real name is not carpetbagger, by the way.
Do you mean trickery like trickery “Lincoln-Douglas-Mahone” dinner name in Petersburg?
I feel you have done an excellent job bashing Southerners, and I would never ask you “shut up.”
You’ve done a good job of it, and a good job in helping to validate the point I made at the Republican meeting. Thanks.
Let’s all go to the Shad Planking in Wakefield this year and have a beer!
While some of the crayons in our box appear to be new with sharp points and vibrant colors, there are others that appear dull and well used with the wrappers torn back. Some of duller ones have perhaps traveled down many a gravel or unpaved road. Depending on where we have settled in life is how we view things differently. We have a diversity of perspectives on such things as the Civil War. I’ll never forget the words of an Army surgeon attending the wounds of a soldier in a field hospital during another war that we shouldn’t have been in: “Never mind Son, Someday it will all go away”. Like the wounds this soldier suffered then, is like the Civil War today, it is not going away anytime soon and perhaps never will.
I would love to have a beer with you G., so long as I knew we were both unarmed! :)
I think you and I know what the Republicans are up to. They are trying to get more Petersburg african-americans to open their minds to republican values. I think this is an honorable goal. Do you? I do not think that race should define people’s politics. I don’t think region should either, but that’s usually another issue.
My on-topic point is that one thing that keeps blacks away from the republican party, even though some of the best conservative thinkers in the party ARE african americans with roots in the south, is that republicans won’t apoligize for the well-documented “southern strategy” to wrest the cultural descendants of the confederacy from the democratic party and make them republicans.
Economic conservatives like myself have been called racist ever since.
I am not saying you are a neccesarially a racist if you fly the stars and bars (though you almost certainly are a yankee-hater), but you have to admit to the great amount of evidence that the history of divison between our two home areas was not just about economic imperialism, but just a little bit about protecting slavery as an institution as well. Republicans have to admit that forces in the party made this deal with the south, and that they repent, or else black people are unlikely to open their ears to the common truths that are on the republican platform. Truths that will benefit them greatly, and I hope that is what we all want. I certainly don’t want them to sign up for an ideology that will not benefit them, and neither do they.
If I hurt a few feelings, I apoligize for the tone I used. I am no Ben Franklin, unfortunately. I am impatient with people who disagree with me, and that’s not nice in anyone.
PS. I do appreciative that Brenda has allowed the debate. Thank you.
I’m sincerely glad so much good information came from this post.
Shawn,
Your comments directed at me are incorrect, and are meaningless, so I’m not offended by anything you say. Your comments do not represent my character, or that of my family. In addition, re-read my stated family ties above. Your comments do help validate some of my information above.
Obviously, you don’t know me or my Petersburg family at all! Also, you were fooled by others on this post. That’s a fact! But, you won’t find me telling you what to do.
You’ve been making insinuations throughout your varied post. The comments are obvious, and laughable! I think some others would probably agree.
Not all Northerners are “Yankees!” Today, Northern “Yankees” are typically identified by their arrogance, self indulgence, and telling other people what to do! > along with a few other unattractive attributes. YOUR “(though you almost certainly are a yankee-hater)” is incorrect and “certainly” not the truth! Another silly assumption on your part. You may not like those attributes either. I don’t like them!
Petersburg is a Southern city, with Southern Charm, Shrines, and Memorials.
Some people appreciate that, and some don’t. I’m an old American veteran who honors all my brave and honorable American veteran family. I take pride in that, and make no excuses. Please share a 9th of June event a Blanford Chruch this year and see how many Petersburg Republicans are there for the annual tribute!
As anyone can find readily in your post, the fact is that you have been “off base” trying to attack me and others on racially charged Souhern issues. In your trying, you lose that battle!
Want controversy? Create a controversial name! Insult anyone’s culture and heritage!
It is my hope that some of you can enjoy the books and links I referenced.
What happened to those 400 Georgia women is a “heart wrenching story”. What happened here at Petersburg presents some “duzzies” too. Black and White women and children killed and maimed by Union shelling in their homes and on the streets of our city! Those Union shells did not discriminate in 1864 & 5! I have not finished those pages on my site yet. Using “presentism” (please look it up), today, such activity would be considered a “War Crime” by today’s standards. It most likely was considered that here by the locals that survived then.
It has been my goal to help supplement some interesting American history for ALL Americans here in Petersburg. Why isn’t it told? Much local Southern history is missing and not being presented for our future generations. Seems like the best many local “experts” can present for Black History are stories of slaves down on the farm or Lincoln freed the slaves. Hmmmm! We can do better!
Especially here in Petersburg, we have much more history than that, we in Petersburg provide a more honest view, and we have done better than most localities thanks to Mayor Mickens and some others here in Petersburg.
We all know the limited Southern history we were taught in school, and just think what the students get today! We know what they teach in the North and elsewhere by reading this post
There is not a doubt that the South knows it lost “The War!” In that war, Southerners did not lose “The Truth” and some other fine attributes!
A good point concerning our “missing history” told here is the lack of Native American Indian history that is absent from our Petersburg stories and signage. We probably had more Indians in Petersburg and vicinity than in five Western states. Some of our children grow up thinking Indians were all from out West. That’s also “silly and insulting!”
I present honest Petersburg history. I’d quickly admit and do not hide the fact that my site does have a Southern tone to supplement the “Yankeefied” versions presented by some at many venues for tourist consumption of American history today. I state that purpose on my site’s home page. As honest information becomes more available, there will be less of a need for my information. That would be good thing!
I believe strongly that “honesty is the best policy” for bringing people together. With the help of others too, I’ll work to keep it going that way!
“Before the war, the average expense of the annual session of the legislature in South Carolina did not exceed $20000. For the 6 years following reconstruction, the average annual expense was over $320000, the expense of the session of 1871 alone being $671000! The total legislative expenses for the 6 years was $2,339,000!”
I will take these figures as fact. Please consider that Virginia was a rather moderate state when it came to slavery. Political correctness in south carolina meant that a white man risked his life if he said anything bad about slavery, as opposed to virginia where many virginians dealt from both sides of the deck. South carolina had the most slaves per white, and non-slaveowners were some of the poorest people on the east coast. I think your money figures are trying to suggest a great increase in the amount of corruption in south carolina (corruption in the SOUTH?? say it ain’t so!!), and that all that money was going into carpet-bagger’s pockets.(instead of the good ol’ boys’) Please consider that south carolina’s whites were uneducated and poverty-stricken, and now that there was a HUGE population of freed uneducated people, there was a huge economic crisis. The carpet-baggers were building schools to educate white and black, building railroads and jobs throughout the south. In many areas, “reconstruction” would have better been termed “construction.” The carpet-baggers were outnumbered of course by the conservatives, and lost the propaganda war for perhaps all time. I am one of the few who wants to honor THEIR memory, as opposed to some reb warrior, or abe lincoln, vor that matter.
You don’t like my opinion about what made the south different — how do you like alexis de tocqueville’s? He wasn’t a hateful yankee?
We made there the acquaintance of a kind of man and a way of life that we had no conception of. This part of the United States is peopled by a single type of man only, the Virginians. They have retained the physical and moral character that belongs to them; they form a people apart, with national prejudices and a distinctive character.
For the first time we have had the chance to examine there the effect that slavery produces on society. On the right bank of the Ohio everything is activity, industry, labor is honored; there are no slaves. Pass to the left bank and the scene changes so suddenly that you think yourself on the other side of the world; the enterprising spirit is gone. There, work is not only painful: it’s shameful, and you degrade yourself in submitting yourself to it. To ride, to hunt, to smoke like a Turk in the sunshine: there is the destiny of the white. To do any other kind of manual labor is to act like a slave. The whites, to the South of Ohio, form a veritable aristocracy which, like the others, combines many prejudices with high sentiments and instincts.
They say, and I am very much inclined to believe, that in the matter of honor these men practice delicacies and refinements unknown in the North. They are frank, hospitable, and put many things before money. They will end, nevertheless, by being dominated by the North. Every day the latter grows more wealthy and densely populated while the South is stationary or growing poor.
[written] Dec. 20, 1831
Or on south carolina:
Conversation with our host at Sandy Bridge, a farmer
He came a few years ago from South Carolina to settle in this place.
Q. Then tell me why all the dwellings we come across in these woods offer such imperfect protection against bad weather. Daylight shows through the walls so much that rain and wind blow freely in. A dwelling like that must be uncomfortable and unhealthy for the owner as well as for his guest. Would it really be so difficult to keep it covered?
A. Nothing easier, but the dweller in this country is generally lazy. He regards work as an evil. Provided he has food enough and a house which gives half shelter, he is happy and thinks only of smoking and hunting.
Q. What do you think is the chief cause of this laziness?
A. Slavery. We are accustomed to doing nothing for ourselves. There is no small-holder in Tennessee so poor but he has one black or two. When he has no more than that, he often has to work with them in the fields. But suppose he has about ten, as often happens, then there is one white man to give orders and he does absolutely nothing but ride and hunt. There is not a farmer but passes some of his time hunting and owns a good gun.
Q. Do you think cultivation by slaves economical?
A. No. I think it costs more than using free labor.
(Tocqueville, p. 94)
As someone here said, “you can’t change history.” But you sure can try to pervert it, as we are ALL aware. The simple fact is that most of the carpetbaggers were only guilty of seeing the MIRAGE of opportunity in the south. With labor freed, they thought one could put finally put it and what little land they could buy or rent to more productive use. Most weren’t that intrested in politics. But, as Bismark said, politics became very interested in them. They found they had to become political and make allies of those who didn’t already hate them.
Anyone who knows the history of the south and esp. louisiana knows that northerers can hardly be blamed for corruption in the south at ANY time. If they skimmed some off the top (I’ll leave it to y’all to provide the evidence), the crime was not in the act but rather in WHO THEY WERE: outsiders. The scalawag’s crime, for which they were often killed: they helped outsiders. Outsiders who were no worse, certainly, than those that fought for slavery, whether they were duped, pressured, or enthusiastic. One ancestor of mine that I am aware of, was duped — so I’m not just trying to insult YOUR ancestors. They’re mine too.
“I believe strongly that ‚Äúhonesty is the best policy‚Äù for bringing people together. With the help of others too, I‚Äôll work to keep it going that way!”
(sigh)
I see, all my first hand historical accounts show my “arrogance” and are “dishonest.”
while yours are “honest” and true. You are a simple and good man, defending simple and good people in the ante-and post-bellum south, while I am a hateful liar, defending butchters, tyrants and cheats. I’m glad your world is so simple, it would be a lot more difficult to understand if it weren’t.
Sure I was fooled! I could fool you too, if I were so inclined. I could represent myself any false way I wished here. So what?
“Not all Northerners are ‚ÄúYankees!‚Äù Today, Northern ‚ÄúYankees‚Äù are typically identified by their arrogance, self indulgence, and telling other people what to do! > along with a few other unattractive attributes. YOUR ‚Äú(though you almost certainly are a yankee-hater)‚Äù is incorrect and ‚Äúcertainly‚Äù not the truth! ”
You of course see the tension of saying you are not a yankee-hater, then giving them all kinds of negative attributes, past and present. But I guess pointing that out is just another example of yankee trickery, and, yes, I’m sure many people agree with you.
That is one great monument at arlington, and yes, I do see at least one black warrior depicted. Nice. I see it was erected during the taft administration, which is considered by black historians to be the administration that completed the selling out of protecting blacks’ rights under the constitution for the sake of national reconciliation and I see it took a cultured southern son of Abraham to honor the black confederates’ service. The average southerner gave the black man Jim Crow, if my history is correct. Some honor. Oh, wait? Is that a hateful, arrogant thing to say? Sorry. I’m sure there are many more monuments I’ve missed, and everything I’ve been taught is wrong — just completely wrong! And all those african americans who’ve been suspicious of me because I’m white had ABSOLUTELY no cause to doubt my good intentions. None at all!
Pity me, please. I just live in a thick web of lies I just can’t seem to see through. I guess we all do.
I’ll ask again, WHO should we honour, and why? You Lost-Cause guys have any suggestions?
I’m sorry I missed the discussion guys. Can we start over again please?
“WHO should we honour,…?”
Sam Houston?
I like sam houston, but the lost-causers won’t.
How about clarnce thomas?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Thomas
He may have some problems, but when I look at where he came from, and how far he’s risen, I feel ashamed of my self, and proud for him.
Shawn,
The information just gets “better”!
You said: “I see, all my first hand historical accounts show my ‚Äúarrogance‚Äù and are ‚Äúdishonest.‚Äù
(Ho Hum!) Please point us to the number post where I said you were “arrogant and are dishonest!” This is getting silly now.
As you can read in my posts, I’m the first to agree that we have some very ugly American history. There’s a bunch that I don’t like either. I can’t change history!
Getting back to the main point, I’d say a Lincoln-Douglass-Mahone name of anything is quite a stretch! How historically accurate the association is, I feel is quite questionable. I did! That’s fair too.
The people who own that history are dead, and have been for many years now.
If there is a debate, all should get full credit where credit is due. That’s also fair.
Also, I never said that you were “a liar defending butchters, tyrants and cheats!”
What number was that?
The reason I provided some historical information was for people to make up their own minds about the past “good, bad, and the ugly.” >> In association with the naming convention.
I know for a fact that it would offend some Republicans!
Shawn,
I already know not to go name-calling under Brenda’s watch because my a while back calling someone a “Gasbag” got my post deleted!
You insinuated that I was a “Yankee-Hater.” Those were harsh words, so, you lose again. I just don’t like ugly people from anywhere.
More reading material shared:
“. . . political correctness has replaced witch trials and communist hearings as the preferred way to torment our fellow countrymen.” “Ghost Riders,” Sharyn McCrumb, 2004, Signet, pp. 9
Brenda,
Honoring Lincoln-Douglass seems to be acceptable for some here.
I sure wouldn’t spend any time debating the use of that name. Some Republicans have Lincoln-Reagan Dinners, Lincoln-Somebody all over the country. Maybe it works for some.
As you can tell, Lincoln is just not one of my favorite people for a variety of reasons mentioned and documented.
GAM — You are very welcome for my allowing the discussion to roll forth (your note my direction in comment 50 was noticed, esp. in view of prior deletions that you mention in 57). My personal sensibilities did wince a time or two at the liveliness, but it seemed to me that those involved were enjoying themselves, so I stayed out of it (mostly–I like to be a goofball occasionally). (And thanks to all for your patience as I learn what is too much vs. too little moderating for the general appetite (itself a fuzzy thing)).
Brenda,
Thanks again.
The basic reason I even cared about the name in the first place was based on previous experience. When I saw the anti-Southern comments following the basic post, I thought to jump in as it was “De jaVue” with my recent Petersburg Republican experience.
I do not have all the answers, but I always shutter today when I hear “we’re going to be telling the whole story.” Often I am left wondering exactly what that means, but my experience tells me that it normally isn’t good news!
To associate Mahone with Lincoln & Douglass after all the anti-Southern comments in this posting, I sort of rest my case for my view of the Confederate name association with Lincoln. I would hope those being swayed one way or the other, that they check their American history.
I have showcased Mahone on my site for his good work for this community and Virginia for 3 years now. Among other information, the cane featured there provides one big clue about post war Confederate Southerners / veterans. On the Mahone link, the story about Moton and his Black Confederate father is even more powerful local history. I wish more of our history was as good.
For such reasons, I fully understand why the Republicans would want to use Ex-Confederate “Hero of the Battle of the Crater” and “a founder of VSU” Mahone’s name for their political gain in our community. The historical problem seems to be, that he sure did not think like Lincoln and Douglass.
The campaign, by some, for our cultural extinction is not far fetched, and their “my way or the highway” approach to so much of the politically correct “murder” of American history today does concern me.
I’m not concerned for me personally, as I have a small grasp of our history, but concerned for our future generations.
For some that sounds corny today. If we lose our identity, no “New World Oder” will save America. Well, anyway, that’s the way I feel.
Petersburg has never had so much information available as it does today. Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
G. Ashleigh
“You insinuated that I was a ‚ÄúYankee-Hater.‚Äù Those were harsh words, so, you lose again. I just don‚Äôt like ugly people from anywhere.”
(sniff)
Now I’m ugly. That’s harsh. :)
Listen, so you don’t like lincoln. You probably don’t like chase or seward either. I get that. I even understand it. Do you like Mahone or not? Do you conceed that he became a republican toward the end of his life? Do you conceed that he was not the political ally of the southern conservatives? That he, like longstreet, decided to side with those who wanted to enfranchise blacks, those people who, as you say “tell others what to do.” It is not clear if you even like the guy or not.
And I’d like to know your opinion on something else. Should the north have minded its own business in the 19th century? Should the republicans have simply left the old order in the south alone after the civil war? Not told others what to do? Not tried to change people?
What exactly do you find so offensive about a Lincoln Mahone team up? Do you think black folks should feel the same way about Lincoln that you do? Most blacks don’t know the real lincoln, and most whites don’t either. Southern whites are as ignorant as any. They just seem to know what “he” did “wrong” to them, and his abuses of the constitution. Even George Wallace wasn’t all bad, after all. (see, I’m not so PC, after all.)
So, instead of telling me that you are gathering more good information on me, let me know what you think about Mahone, at the very least. I have genuinely learned more than I knew before. Maybe I will learn more — I did learn what presentism means, for example. It means I can’t condemn anyone in the past by the moral standards of today — and it probably means I can’t condemn anyone today who celebrates the moral standards of the past.
I certainly don’t celebrate Lincoln’s moral abuses. Nor do I entirely give him a pass. I practice presentism, and so do you, you just apply it differently.
Maybe we will both learn.
Or maybe we will just re-enforce our respective opinions that the north is full of arrogant jerks and the south is full of people who believe in romantic falsehoods about the past.
“. . . political correctness has replaced witch trials and communist hearings as the preferred way to torment our fellow countrymen.”
I guess it has replaced lynching too. Don’t paint yourself as too much of a victim. You’ll start to remind me of the NAACP.
“Getting back to the main point, I‚Äôd say a Lincoln-Douglass-Mahone name of anything is quite a stretch! How historically accurate the association is, I feel is quite questionable. I did! That‚Äôs fair too.
The people who own that history are dead, and have been for many years now.
If there is a debate, all should get full credit where credit is due. That‚Äôs also fair.”
I totally agree! I doubt you committed any of the crimes, and neither did I.
And I feel a little uncomfortable about trying to sell Lincoln to petersburg, while allowing people like Trent Lott to represent the party. Dealing from both sides of the deck, and a losing strategy.
B, how many posts for this thread to be the all time grand-daddy winner? L
I think the previous record had been 58 or 59 comments. (A fast/east way to sort threads by # of comments appears to be something worth asking my the IT side of this operation about.) Seeing that we are now in the 60s, Linas, you now have the honor of having kicked off what is the current record-holding thread. :-D
Whew! and I thought we wouldn’t make it!
More evidence of the genocide of southern heritage!
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/building-owner-fights-klan-item-shop/20080310092309990001
The owner says that if his shop is closed, america will fall.
Maybe his america. The civil-rights leader better watch out. If he gets rid of the Heritage not Haters entirely, then HE’LL be out of a job too.
These groups NEED each other.
Notice the third slide, its a “redneck” shop, so don’t blame Thomas Sowell for misusing the word.
Nice AP video!!
http://us.video.aol.com/player/launcher?ar=us_en_video_748×541_full&mode=1&pmmsid=2085186
Don’t let ‘em yankees reconstruct with presentism! Yell until they use pretzel logic!
Wow… this is sooooooo cool. Brenda promised me $10 for every posting…. I’M RICH, I’M RICH !!!!!
(:P)